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View Full Version : Update: The Bench Policies regarding Paypal Gift Payments



slavlite
02-21-2012, 02:10 PM
We have updated our policy regarding Paypal Gift Payments, the FAQ has been updated to reflect this:

http://www.thebenchtrading.com/thebench/faq.php?faq=bench_policies#faq_paypal_gi ft


PayPal Gift funds is not an acceptable form of payment for purchases on The Bench. Any seller offering to take PayPal payments must be willing to absorb costs associated with that service. Normal protections of the TGB team will not be fully realized for anyone circumventing the rules and sellers insisting upon this may be subject to rules sanctions as well.

If you are a seller who generally asks for Paypal Gift as payment option you should start addding your fees directly into your selling prices, here is a link to a paypal fee calculator: http://ppcalc.com/ OR go for Money order, or check sales as an alternative.

Thank You,
The Mod Team

tim815
02-21-2012, 02:11 PM
bravo

redbird4
02-21-2012, 02:21 PM
Ditto.

JGerutfan9
02-21-2012, 02:25 PM
Thanks for this. It was needed to be put into the rules.

Way to go mods!!

Eric

criollos
02-21-2012, 03:40 PM
Ħawesome!

metsman1986
02-21-2012, 03:46 PM
Great news!

The Quarter Box
02-21-2012, 05:55 PM
I might have to change my sig now.

---Frank

cmcjr99
02-21-2012, 08:56 PM
love it......a long overdue move in my opinion.....

sberry
02-21-2012, 09:00 PM
Ditto to all

mrmopar
02-21-2012, 09:38 PM
Where does the bench stand on advertising up front that you want a $xx.xx fee for any PP payments. I believe Ebay forbids it, but I don't see any reason why it would not be allowed if it is stated up front.

For example, I don't sell much, but on occasion have sometimes stated that smaller PP payments would incur a fee, but I typically absorb the fee on larger payments. My thought here is that on very small $ sales, I am already not making much and offering the PP option is a convenient way for a buyer to avoid the cost of mailing a payment (you save 45 cents right off the bat) and some cases the cost of a MO, checks being the obsolete bound payment system that they are becoming. However, that fee I incur for allowing PP cuts into an already small profit margin. On the other hand, higher sales generate higher fees, but they are more easily absorbed in the larger amounts received.

Personally I don't care either way, but this may be a huge issue with other higher volume sellers. Fee avoidance is quite common these days. Nobody wants to pay to play!!

slavlite
02-21-2012, 09:43 PM
IF you want to state what your fees are to the seller that is fine with me. We are not ebay and dont own paypal so i don't see any thing wrong with:

1997 Joe Schmo for sale, sale Price 10 dollars + .65 cents for paypal fees. Or simply saying 10.65 is my sell price.

I know exactly what you are saying about the smaller sales fees adding up.

This is strictly us changing the official wording of our past Paypal gift policy to reiterate the issues with TGB's, Paypal gift is for gifting someone money and personal use, its not meant for "Transfer of service or goods"

mrmopar
02-21-2012, 10:00 PM
Understood. Just thought it might be good to clarify. I like the idea of stating fees up front rather than building them in, in case someone did want to pay with cash/MO, etc.


IF you want to state what your fees are to the seller that is fine with me. We are not ebay and dont own paypal so i don't see any thing wrong with:

1997 Joe Schmo for sale, sale Price 10 dollars + .65 cents for paypal fees. Or simply saying 10.65 is my sell price.

I know exactly what you are saying about the smaller sales fees adding up.

This is strictly us changing the official wording of our past Paypal gift policy to reiterate the issues with TGB's, Paypal gift is for gifting someone money and personal use, its not meant for "Transfer of service or goods"

cmcjr99
02-21-2012, 11:19 PM
unless they've changed something , pay pal used to have a rule that forbade adding a surcharge....i know it's all in semantics really , but by the strict interpretation of their terms of use a total price of 10.65 would be ok while a price of $10 with an additional charge of $.65 added for using pay pal (as opposed to any other method) is not acceptable.....on the other hand , pay pal has no rule about offering a discount for those paying with cash/MO,check etc...


i guess you could compare it to buying gas : a station may give a discount for buyers using cash , but may not raise the price those paying with a credit card....

Motown G
02-21-2012, 11:30 PM
Thanks again to the mods!!

JamesNevans
02-21-2012, 11:53 PM
Actually, I think I have to disagree with the wording if not the sentiment of slavlite in post #11, you cannot state $10 plus $0.65 PayPal fees. Because of the wording in the FAQs you have to know going in that if you accept PayPal as a convienence payment you need to price that item at $10.65 to net the $10. The calculator is simply to allow sellers to know what the expenses of selling are up front and not pass it on as a tacked on cost to the buyer. If you don't want to pay the fee then insist upon checks or money orders, don't charge the buyer and don't encourage the skipping of the fee through what was PayPal gift or we get right back to the same old potential for TGB problems.

Note to mrmopar, I know on the small stuff I have something on my own site saying that I have to have sales exceeding $10 to absorb the fee, but if I were to do something on here where there would be a danger of selling from a sales list under that I would just note that individual prices may be higher for smaller sales.

metsman1986
02-22-2012, 12:03 AM
I don't think this thing is that complicated..................Just don't do the gifted PayPal and everyone will satisfied................

shortstopsport
02-22-2012, 12:13 AM
I agree with metsman1986. We are reading too much into this.


I don't think this thing is that complicated..................Just don't do the gifted PayPal and everyone will satisfied................

JamesNevans
02-22-2012, 12:13 AM
I don't think this thing is that complicated..................Just don't do the gifted PayPal and everyone will satisfied................

Agreed, not complicated as the language is clear. The people that won't be satisfied are the ones that try to skimp on the fees and they could care less about the protections the buyer has to give up. Sellers will have to adjust and the calculator can give them an idea BEFORE they price their items what the cost of BUSINESS is before trying to place the onus on the buyer and the potential clean-up for TGBs on the moderator team.

opcfan
02-22-2012, 12:24 AM
Great news.

mrmopar
02-22-2012, 12:32 AM
This is why I asked. Like I said, I do very little selling and it won't affect me much, if at all.

I would have to read the FAQs again to see if it is clear that adding a fee to a transaction is allowed or not, but accepting PP is as much a convenience to the buyer as it is to the seller on a site like this with small volume sellers. A seller could just as soon ask for cash, like some sellers do. It's risky (for both parties as it is easily stolen w/o a trace) and a pain (sending cash has to be round numbers or deal with change and even having cash these days is odd for some), but they must have their reasons. MOs are often not free, so another reason to conveniently use PP as a buyer. Not to mention once more the saved postage cost of sending a payment.

In the end, I think a seller should be able to build in any part of their cost if they chose to do so. It might hurt their sales or it may now. Discount for cash/MO or a fee for CC/PP. I don't see a difference, especially on a private site as long as the owner is cool with it.

It should be clear though, either way.


Actually, I think I have to disagree with the wording if not the sentiment of slavlite in post #11, you cannot state $10 plus $0.65 PayPal fees. Because of the wording in the FAQs you have to know going in that if you accept PayPal as a convienence payment you need to price that item at $10.65 to net the $10. The calculator is simply to allow sellers to know what the expenses of selling are up front and not pass it on as a tacked on cost to the buyer. If you don't want to pay the fee then insist upon checks or money orders, don't charge the buyer and don't encourage the skipping of the fee through what was PayPal gift or we get right back to the same old potential for TGB problems.

Note to mrmopar, I know on the small stuff I have something on my own site saying that I have to have sales exceeding $10 to absorb the fee, but if I were to do something on here where there would be a danger of selling from a sales list under that I would just note that individual prices may be higher for smaller sales.

JamesNevans
02-22-2012, 12:42 AM
Second line:
Any seller offering to take PayPal payments must be willing to absorb costs associated with that service.

It has always been an option whether a seller took PayPal, we just stop the PayPal Gift option. If that raises costs then let the seller price it accordingly rather than the buyer be talked into sending a payment thinking it saves them money when in effect it creates problems for the moderator team. Quite frankly from many of the comments here, there is also a resentment from people thinking the sellers are cheap, particularly ones that sell regularly.

mrmopar
02-22-2012, 12:53 AM
Then it just comes down to upping your price by the fee amount and offering a discount for cash or MO payments. It is simply a hidden fee if the seller choses to do so.

I believe the goal here was to stop the "abuse" of the gift payment option. However, PP is still getting their cut now. Gift payments used to be free, now the sender pays the fee.

Although the site is great, I think some of the rules might go a bit far to protect people who otherwise deserve what they get, such as keeping new members from selling. As I understand it, this was instated to help protect buyers who got ripped off by new sellers. Well, I submit to you this question then...How on earth do you get ripped off when a new seller has to send first??? It doesn't affect me, but that is one of the rules I think should go bye-bye. If I can pay after I receive my item, there is no risk and as long as a new seller agrees to those terms, then no harm in letting them sell.

JamesNevans
02-22-2012, 01:10 AM
I hear what you are saying mrmopar, but I think the strength of this site is from trading and community. Too many people who come on here looking to just sell kind of just cheapen the site, so rather than cater to their needs we look at the greater picture. I think this site is enhanced by the collector first mentality that comes from trading rather than the quick buck artists that might otherwise gravitate to this site if they didn't have to make that initial 20 Bench Points. It's not perfect, but this particular rule change came about simply because of the problems that collector members were expressing to the Mod team. We don't go creating rules for the heck of it, it's just simply a response to where the problems lie.

HoosierBuddy
02-22-2012, 01:55 AM
If it doesn't effect you, WHY BOTHER BRINGING IT UP?

It's a simple new rule. Really no need for discussion.

slavlite
02-22-2012, 08:55 AM
James' description of the selling rule is dead on, it does create quality traders out of new members, and we have seen that since the rule is implemented.

AS far as My post #11, James is right again, based on the wording, The only reason I think it doesnt really matter if it is stated as fees or not is because if you are charging a buyer 10.65 for a card, they know (unless they are completely new to this) what the .65 cents is for.

Maybe a better statement in a trade thread besides "+x.xx amount for fees" would be "minimum sales of 5 or 10 or more dollars" which would help.

I also completely get that Checks are a obsolete form of payment, Howvere they do work, and are a free trackable form of payment in the long run.

tglg
02-22-2012, 09:48 AM
I use money orders usually, as my bank as a convience to keep customers, offers free money orders. But sometimes, I do use the paypal form as it is quicker, less legwork, and is usually offset by the cost of a postage stamp. So as a buyer, I don't mind sending a bit extra, as it is less legwork on my end.

tonsofcommons
02-22-2012, 06:15 PM
My question is why does the Bench have to regulate this? I send paypal gift when I feel comfortable and regular if I don't.

I don't see why The Bench needs to regulate it one way or another.

I will do whatever. I don't care. The fees are a big deal, but being told "You must do it this way" just doesn't make sense to me.

BoomerSooner
02-22-2012, 06:47 PM
Quote:"Too many people who come on here looking to just sell kind of just cheapen the site"

Maybe you should ban all selling also.

Champs96ws
02-22-2012, 07:50 PM
My question is why does the Bench have to regulate this? I send paypal gift when I feel comfortable and regular if I don't.

I don't see why The Bench needs to regulate it one way or another.

I will do whatever. I don't care. The fees are a big deal, but being told "You must do it this way" just doesn't make sense to me.

Because lately we get a lot of TGB's where the buyer sent PayPal gift and now want us to get involved. Anyone can use the gift option BUT don't come running to us, when you can't get a refund from a bad sale.

anglinomics
02-22-2012, 07:57 PM
To use paypal gift for a sale I would presume that to be illegal. How can The Bench allow that?

tonsofcommons
02-22-2012, 08:04 PM
I would highly doubt there is any "legality" issues.

I understand The Bench not wanting to be held liable, but to say we HAVE to build it in to our sales price is different than saying "The Bench is not liable for any transactions originating from our forums."

cjay101
02-22-2012, 08:53 PM
I would highly doubt there is any "legality" issues.

I understand The Bench not wanting to be held liable, but to say we HAVE to build it in to our sales price is different than saying "The Bench is not liable for any transactions originating from our forums."

We're not saying that you HAVE to build it in. If someone wants to pay gift and someone wants to accept gift there are two things that must occur.

1. The BUYER would have to decide to not report the seller for requesting gift. If they feel comfortable in their own shoes with a gift transaction, that is their full responsibility. (if the buyer reports the seller, they can be subject to discipline for circumventing the forum rules)

2. The BUYER and SELLER would have to decide that the purchase was worth risking all recourse through the Bench TGB system. (You would honestly be amazed with some of the situations we have dealt with over the years...)

Essentially....do what you want, but if you decide to circumvent the policies in place, don't complain. The policies are there for protection of BOTH parties involved.

mrmopar
02-22-2012, 09:06 PM
There is always room for discussion, despite your feelings otherwise.


If it doesn't effect you, WHY BOTHER BRINGING IT UP?

It's a simple new rule. Really no need for discussion.

mrmopar
02-22-2012, 09:10 PM
The site staff can make the rules they see fit for the benefit of the site. However...

It seems that the people who need it to be regulated are the ones who purposefully expose themselves to greater risks and then come crying when something happens. People need to be responsible for their own actions.


My question is why does the Bench have to regulate this? I send paypal gift when I feel comfortable and regular if I don't.

I don't see why The Bench needs to regulate it one way or another.

I will do whatever. I don't care. The fees are a big deal, but being told "You must do it this way" just doesn't make sense to me.

entersandman
02-22-2012, 11:51 PM
Ive had to have the mods interviene in several really bad sales. Whatever rules they make is for the general good and i will fully support.

ryanfan03
02-23-2012, 12:11 AM
i guess we should ban cash transactions too?...same concept

metrotheme
02-23-2012, 08:45 AM
Look, so buyers will probably be paying an extra $.50 - $1.00 to use paypal. Big deal. I often quote people two prices. One for cash and then one for paypal payment. I've never had anyone get offended because if you are going to mail a payment, it's going to cost you another $.45 for the postage. If you pay with paypal, you're probably looking at another $.50 / $1.00 to have the convenience to do so. Most people aren't going to mind.

slavlite
02-23-2012, 09:03 AM
i guess we should ban cash transactions too?...same concept

Cash deals, are generally always listed as "At the senders risk" And we have had little to no TGB issues with cash transactions over the years, However we repeatedly run into issues with paypal gift.

cjay101 said it very well earlier in the thread about "members taking responsibility for their own actions"

And to the person who earlier said "Why dont we just ban all selling on the site" You are taking the issue too far, This is a case of the paypal gift use only. Many sales go off without a hitch here on The Bench, The use of paypal gift has caused too many headaches for the site and using gives up seller protection via paypal, so it gives up seller protection here as well.

BoomerSooner
02-23-2012, 07:52 PM
Quote:"And to the person who earlier said "Why dont we just ban all selling on the site" You are taking the issue too far, This is a case of the paypal gift use only. Many sales go off without a hitch here on The Bench, The use of paypal gift has caused too many headaches for the site and using gives up seller protection via paypal, so it gives up seller protection here as well."

My apologies, I was a little insulted at the comment that sales here "cheapen the site".

David K.
02-23-2012, 08:33 PM
Its a good policy and I'll avoid the paypal gift transactions. Best regards, David

mindbinge
02-23-2012, 11:12 PM
you guys who are cheap, just pay your stupid paypal fees. If it's that big of a deal to you then charge whoever you are selling to an extra buck or whatever...I have never liked this whole "gift" thing...paypal might be greedy and evil, but they are providing a service and you are using that service...so just pay the man and don't cheat the system...the little bit you pay does at least provide you with "some" limited insurance on your trade.

JamesNevans
02-23-2012, 11:54 PM
My apologies, I was a little insulted at the comment that sales here "cheapen the site".

It's all about context, pulled from the full quote I was referring to people not invested enough in the site to establish themselves as traders and collectors, it was in response to why we don't let new members sell if they still had to send first:

I think the strength of this site is from trading and community. Too many people who come on here looking to just sell kind of just cheapen the site, so rather than cater to their needs we look at the greater picture. I think this site is enhanced by the collector first mentality that comes from trading rather than the quick buck artists that might otherwise gravitate to this site if they didn't have to make that initial 20 Bench Points.

BoomerSooner
02-24-2012, 01:24 AM
PM sent, as this is off-topic.

plopowitz
03-04-2012, 06:17 PM
I support the new policy, and will abide by it.

Thanks mods for your services, which apparently some of us forget are performed free of charge.

Thanks again,
Pete

anglinomics
06-24-2012, 06:39 PM
Comments are redacted.:)

Cardsandballs
06-30-2012, 03:21 AM
Well I am just grateful to have a great site to trade on, and for the Mods to take all the time they do to watch out for good honest traders and buyers here. I will happily abide by the rule. The Mods here do a great job and do it for free, and since they are the ones who deal with all the bad sales ( again free of charge ) I will trust they have a good reason to make the rules they do !