Do you buy IP/TTM autos on EBAY?

Hawaiian BamBam · May 28, 2012

Hey guys, just curious how many of you out there still buy IP/TTM autos on EBAY? With certified autos going so low nowadays on EBAY and with so many stories ive heard about all the fake autos on EBAY, I was just wondering how many people here still buy them? for me as a team collector sometimes, actually many times EBAY is the only place to find some good ,hard to get lesser known players autographs that are IP or TTM.

tigsfan · May 28, 2012

I have an unwritten rule that I will only buy TTM/IP autos if I am able to inspect them in person (card shop, garage sale, etc.). However I never have a problem trading for stuff online. Of course that may be because, as you mentioned, I am not one of those hard core team collectors.

worldwideed · May 28, 2012

I buy autographs on ebay all the time. I use logic and reason, along with comparing them to other know autographs to help me determine if they are real. It's a good option for those of us without local shops and for players that don't have certified autos, in fact it's the only option.

For example, I purchased a nice team ball off of eBay years ago mostly for the Gaylord Perry auto on it but but some others as well. Most of the sigs looked great and Manager Rene Lachman was on the sweet spot. If someone was going to fake that ball wouldn't the not put Gaylord on the SS? Got it for $30 dlvd.

Hawaiian BamBam · May 28, 2012

thanks guys for your responses.im kind of divided on buying ttm/ip autos on ebay for the following reason. half of me says if someone is going to fake an autograph its going to beof a big time athlete like michael jordan, kobe bryant, mickey mantle, jeter, pujols, etc not someone like the dodgers terry wells, mike christopher or jack savage(all dodgers that didnt play many games for the them) but then on the other hand for example with terry wellls, ive searched years on ebay for an autograph of his on his one and only dodger card and have found only one in 14 years of searching, so his "dodger" autos are scare and very rare, so par tof me says maybe someone will try to fake his autograph even though he only played a handful of games in the majors, because how hard it is to find any autograph of his, especially on a dodger card, just because rare autos can fetch a premium. i mean andre dawson and don dutton autos ar all over ebay but lesser players like terry wells, jorge orta, vicente romo and gary weiss, not so much. your thoughts on this please

worldwideed · May 28, 2012

You have to go with the best information available to you. There is no fool proof system, there is ALWAYS risk short of seeing the person signing it yourself. You just have to weight the pros and cons and make an educated decision yourself. No amount of threads the topic will ultimately be any help.

P.S. I'll never know 100% for sure if my ball above is legit. Do I care that I don't know? Not at all, it does not detract from my enjoyment of it. If it did then I wold not be worth having and I would not have purchased it....or any autos for that matter.

moose2438 · May 28, 2012

I have bought some TTMs off of eBay, but only after I do a good chunk of research and comparisons. Usually I won't just compare the autograph I'm looking at, but also some of the other items the seller has for sale. The one I'm interested in might look similar, but I'm still going to have concerns if some of the other autos are looking funky.

It also helps when the seller provides more information on when he obtained it (for example, if the seller got it in person, if he can tell you exactly what game it was, who they were playing, the date, or something to that effect), I sometimes have a little more confidence in that it's authentic.

But it's primarily a lot of comparing and trusting your gut.

mrmopar · May 28, 2012

Besides all of the signatures looking pretty much right on, who would fake a mid 80s Mariners team ball using different pens and getting so little money for it? It just would not be worth the time for anyone looking to forge signatures to do it for so little return.

worldwideed said:
You have to go with the best information available to you. There is no fool proof system, there is ALWAYS risk short of seeing the person signing it yourself. You just have to weight the pros and cons and make an educated decision yourself. No amount of threads the topic will ultimately be any help.

P.S. I'll never know 100% for sure if my ball above is legit. Do I care that I don't know? Not at all, it does not detract from my enjoyment of it. If it did then I wold not be worth having and I would not have purchased it....or any autos for that matter.

I have not seen a Terry Wells signed card, but have seen a few 3x5s. I'm guessing the guy is one of those tough to find guys or just doesn't feel the need to sign for fans. I'd like a card signed, but I wouldn't break the bank for it. I settled on a 3x5 and will upgrade if the opportunity presents itself. You never know...I bought a lot of about 100 signed Dodger cards from the early-mid 90s and they were mostly the guys you'd expect (T. Williams, Cedeno, Hollandsworth, Karros, Offerman, Samuel, Harris, etc) BUT Brian Traxler was in there twice. He is no easy find himself, so they are out there. You just have to be patient.

KCLJ520 · May 28, 2012

These guys are right, caveat emptor (may the buyer beware) I dont trust ebay one bit, as there are a lot of profiteers, and in many ways it has hurt the hobby.....I always deal with people I trust, though that having been said, if you know who you are buying from on ebay, it is probably ok. I always deal in person or on the Bench, have had nothing but great luck here....

BoomerSooner · May 29, 2012

Quote:"Besides all of the signatures looking pretty much right on, who would fake a mid 80s Mariners team ball using different pens and getting so little money for it? It just would not be worth the time for anyone looking to forge signatures to do it for so little return."

That's the logic that people who get ripped off use. According to the database at SCN, Terry Wells has signed 4 out of 7 requests TTM.

dan5 · May 29, 2012

worldwideed said:
.

For example, I purchased a nice team ball off of eBay years ago mostly for the Gaylord Perry auto on it but but some others as well. Most of the sigs looked great and Manager Rene Lachman was on the sweet spot. If someone was going to fake that ball wouldn't the not put Gaylord on the SS? Got it for $30 dlvd.

Actually when you do team balls you always put the manager on the SS.

worldwideed · May 29, 2012

I do?

dan5 · May 29, 2012

worldwideed said:
I do?

I was making a general statement about people who graph. Didn't know you would take it so literally.

All experienced graphers put the manager on the sweet spot.

A lot of players won't even sign the SS because they say it's the managers spot.

worldwideed · May 29, 2012

I was just being difficult, I figured it out what you meant but actually did not know that. Thank you.

mrmopar · May 29, 2012

Perhaps that is true, but you can't deny that it makes sense. Take this exact ball for example. That team had no real star players to speak of except maybe Gaylord Perry. Perry is an easy signature though, worth very little. Of the signatures I can make out from that scan, there are a couple of deceased players, who are also not tough (Todd Cruz and Al Cowens). I think I see Riche Zisk. He is tough, but not impossible, not overly expensive. There may be a couple of other not so easy signatures as well. Overall, it is a fine Mariner ball for those who like/appreciate the Mariners, but nothing close in value like a newer ball that might contain Griffey, Arod or Ichiro.

Now, take the time to practice all of those signatures to the point of perfecting them enough so as to possibly fool most buyers. Now spend the time signing a ball. Use different ink to "throw off the experts". Wow, you just made $30! Hardly the kind of return a scammer is looking to make for his time invested. He'd rather fake Mantle, Maris, DiMaggio or Williams at $200-300+ a pop.

When I am doing my research on those $1 autographs, I have often been fooled into thinking they are safe because they are so cheap and common, they couldn't possibly be fake.

BoomerSooner said:
That's the logic that people who get ripped off use.

basebal1fan · May 30, 2012

The same logic that goes into counterfeiting money can be applied to counterfeiting cards. To master a player's signature requires the same investment whether it's a star or benchwarmer. By the same logic, to counterfeit a $100 bill or a $1 bill takes the same resources. But, if one is to counterfeit a $100 bill (Pujols auto), the bill (card) will certainly be looked at more throughly because of the nature of the bill (card). But, a $1 bill isn't worth it to counterfeit because it takes the same resources to produce and yields little relative return. Same goes for lower-end autos. However, if one is to counterfeit a $20 bill, there is far less scrutiny than with $100 bills and much more return than $1 bills. Therefore, I would be most weary of the $20 bills (mid-range TTM/IP autos) because, by their very nature, people put their guard down when buying and they yield decent return for the counterfeiter as well. Hope someone can follow that.

Hawaiian BamBam · May 30, 2012

i agree, what i get from your post is, why draw attention to you forging mays, mantle jeter, ichiro and pujols, and why get very little bang for your buch forging gene harris, melido perez, bob horn and tim teufel. instead focus on the mid term guys, like maybe forgeing tim raines, harold baines alvin davia, dave parker, gregg jeffries and doug drabek?? did i get it right?? for me, my concerne were the one hit wonders, guys that played for the dodgers maybe 2-3 games and have 1 major league card, then you never hear from them again. guys that had barely a cup of coffee up in the show. for my own pc, those were the guys i was worried would be forged or fakes.???/ correct me if i am wrong, please so i can learn from you guys.

BoomerSooner · May 30, 2012

mrmopar said:
Perhaps that is true, but you can't deny that it makes sense. Take this exact ball for example. That team had no real star players to speak of except maybe Gaylord Perry. Perry is an easy signature though, worth very little. Of the signatures I can make out from that scan, there are a couple of deceased players, who are also not tough (Todd Cruz and Al Cowens). I think I see Riche Zisk. He is tough, but not impossible, not overly expensive. There may be a couple of other not so easy signatures as well. Overall, it is a fine Mariner ball for those who like/appreciate the Mariners, but nothing close in value like a newer ball that might contain Griffey, Arod or Ichiro.

Now, take the time to practice all of those signatures to the point of perfecting them enough so as to possibly fool most buyers. Now spend the time signing a ball. Use different ink to "throw off the experts". Wow, you just made $30! Hardly the kind of return a scammer is looking to make for his time invested. He'd rather fake Mantle, Maris, DiMaggio or Williams at $200-300+ a pop.

When I am doing my research on those $1 autographs, I have often been fooled into thinking they are safe because they are so cheap and common, they couldn't possibly be fake.

All i can say is that I've seen many, many team signed balls that contain 3-4 good sigs, and a whole lot of fakes. Suppose someone has a period ball with a Cowens, Alvin Davis & one other Mariner. That ball holds little to no value- not a team ball, not a single signed ball. I don't know anyone who collects multi-player balls that aren't thematic (Buckner-Mookie Wilson, Pete Rose-Bud harrelson,etc). But you add another 12 common sigs to it, it now has value as a "team" ball. You don't have to "perfect" any sigs other than huge stars. You can even get some more legit sigs on it to further entice a buyer. But you have to think of one thing, and one thing alone- if any sig on that ball is fake, or even in question, then the entire ball is worthless. Using the logic that the rarest or most expensive sig "looks good" doesn't guarantee anything, IMO.
This notion that a crook only goes for the biggest pile of money does not hold water- some are way more clever and prefer a slow, steady pace of ripoffs with less chance of being noticed or called out. This is what I mean when I say the logic of it's not worth it financially for a crook to forge no name sigs isn't always true- any profit is profit. These guys know more than you think- they know who the rare, tough sigs are and how to exploit that.

basebal1fan · Jun 1, 2012

Yeah, that's definitely the right track. The best rule of all is to use your common sense. The biggest indicator of a fake is shakiness of the auto. If it looks like there are hesitation marks in the signature, consult someone else or look at more autos of that player that you know are real and check against that. If you do that, I can't say you will be successful in every purchase, but definitely more often than not. And I definitely would be less weary of the lower end players where it wouldn't be worth the time and energy to forge the autos.

Hawaiian BamBam said:
i agree, what i get from your post is, why draw attention to you forging mays, mantle jeter, ichiro and pujols, and why get very little bang for your buch forging gene harris, melido perez, bob horn and tim teufel. instead focus on the mid term guys, like maybe forgeing tim raines, harold baines alvin davia, dave parker, gregg jeffries and doug drabek?? did i get it right?? for me, my concerne were the one hit wonders, guys that played for the dodgers maybe 2-3 games and have 1 major league card, then you never hear from them again. guys that had barely a cup of coffee up in the show. for my own pc, those were the guys i was worried would be forged or fakes.???/ correct me if i am wrong, please so i can learn from you guys.

I know that any profit is some profit, but it isn't worth it to go to the PO and mail a package and spend the time and get the cards, etc to make a measly 50 cents. I posted the example relating to counterfeit bills earlier in the thread. What do you think of that?

BoomerSooner said:
All i can say is that I've seen many, many team signed balls that contain 3-4 good sigs, and a whole lot of fakes. Suppose someone has a period ball with a Cowens, Alvin Davis & one other Mariner. That ball holds little to no value- not a team ball, not a single signed ball. I don't know anyone who collects multi-player balls that aren't thematic (Buckner-Mookie Wilson, Pete Rose-Bud harrelson,etc). But you add another 12 common sigs to it, it now has value as a "team" ball. You don't have to "perfect" any sigs other than huge stars. You can even get some more legit sigs on it to further entice a buyer. But you have to think of one thing, and one thing alone- if any sig on that ball is fake, or even in question, then the entire ball is worthless. Using the logic that the rarest or most expensive sig "looks good" doesn't guarantee anything, IMO.
This notion that a crook only goes for the biggest pile of money does not hold water- some are way more clever and prefer a slow, steady pace of ripoffs with less chance of being noticed or called out. This is what I mean when I say the logic of it's not worth it financially for a crook to forge no name sigs isn't always true- any profit is profit. These guys know more than you think- they know who the rare, tough sigs are and how to exploit that.

metrotheme · Jun 1, 2012

You are taking a risk with any autograph you didn't get in person. As someone said earlier, do your homework and be comfortable with your decision. Athlete signatures vary so widely, especially modern players, that its hard to be sure. I know a lot of graphers who can do many players' signatures very well just because they doodle so much w/ it while waiting for guys to come and sign.

Many of the autos out there for deceased players were acquired TTM or IP, especially the players from the earlier part of the 1900's. Who knows if their wives were signing stuff? It's possible.

Think about all the Hank Aaron autos that were coming back TTM in the last few years in 1 week. It is common knowledge that his secretary is signing everything; however, people looking on ebay may not be educated.

I just bought a Mays auto that I feel very comfortable with that was acquired IP. After I got the backstory and had a few people look at it, I was comfortable buying it.

General case, I would stay away from DiMaggio, Mantle, Williams, etc. because so many made their livelihood off of forging their signatures (see operation bullpen).

BoomerSooner · Jun 2, 2012

basebal1fan said:
I know that any profit is some profit, but it isn't worth it to go to the PO and mail a package and spend the time and get the cards, etc to make a measly 50 cents. I posted the example relating to counterfeit bills earlier in the thread. What do you think of that?

So exactly how much "profit" do you have to make, to make it 'worth it"? To each their own, right? And you're thinking small- most of the guys who do forgeries don't do just one item, they do HUNDREDs of them in a day, and flip them all over the country on unsuspecting dealers, collectors & investors. Operation Bullpen was mentioned, look that up and see exactly how the Marino brothers did it. One day they would forge Mantle sigs on hundreds upon hundreds of items, then the next day they'd do DiMaggio sigs on hundreds & hundreds of items, then the next day another sig, etc. And again I point out those are items which fall under intense scrutiny from buyers. If you could do an item that falls under less of a watchful eye, make less profit but operate for a longer, uninterrupted period of time, then the same profit would be there over time...
As for your counterfeit bills comparison, I'm not sure it applies. Could you spot a counterfeit $1 bill? I couldn't, I barely look at $1 bills. Same theory for common player sigs- look at the example here- your eyes go to the rarest, toughest, boldest sigs and barely glance the common ones. And if you did look closer, would you know the difference between a good Alvin Davis sig and a bad one? I wouldn't and couldn't use that as a reason to doubt the ball..

Do you buy IP/TTM autos on EBAY?

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