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Thread: MLB Modern Era (Veterans Committee) Hall of Fame Ballot

  1. #16
    One could probably make an argument for everyone on this list. I think they will all be in eventually.
    Collecting Terry Bradshaw and players from the 70's Steelers Super Bowl teams, Larry Bird, and John Havlicek

  2. #17
    Voting totals: Ted Simmons (13); Marvin Miller (12); Dwight Evans (8); Dave Parker (7); Steve Garvey (6); and Lou Whitaker (6). Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson and Dale Murphy each received three or fewer votes.

    Player evaluations have evolved over the years. There used to be greater emphasis on basic statistics like batting average, home runs, runs batted in, wins and earned run average. Evaluators now place more emphasis on (relatively) newer metrics like WAR, OPS, and WHIP - over traditional basic stats.

    Players like Steve Garvey and Dave Parker were considered superstars in their playing days but are evaulated more harshly today because of their low walk totals (and hence low OBP). Garvey was also considered an excellent fielder in his day but now considered a below-average fielder due to lack of range.

    Other players like Dwight Evans and Lou Whitaker are evulated more favorbly today due to their career WAR totals and better OBP.

    Jacob DeGrom has won NL Cy Young award past two seasons despite winning only 10 and 11 games. If his stats were evaluated 20 or 30 years ago, his awards likely would have gone to someone else who won at least a few more games.
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    David Ortiz: .308 BA, 58 HRs
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    Jim Rice: .330, 36 HRs
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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by cardmonster View Post
    Voting totals: Ted Simmons (13); Marvin Miller (12); Dwight Evans (8); Dave Parker (7); Steve Garvey (6); and Lou Whitaker (6). Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson and Dale Murphy each received three or fewer votes.

    Player evaluations have evolved over the years. There used to be greater emphasis on basic statistics like batting average, home runs, runs batted in, wins and earned run average. Evaluators now place more emphasis on (relatively) newer metrics like WAR, OPS, and WHIP - over traditional basic stats.

    Players like Steve Garvey and Dave Parker were considered superstars in their playing days but are evaulated more harshly today because of their low walk totals (and hence low OBP). Garvey was also considered an excellent fielder in his day but now considered a below-average fielder due to lack of range.

    Other players like Dwight Evans and Lou Whitaker are evulated more favorbly today due to their career WAR totals and better OBP.

    Jacob DeGrom has won NL Cy Young award past two seasons despite winning only 10 and 11 games. If his stats were evaluated 20 or 30 years ago, his awards likely would have gone to someone else who won at least a few more games.
    Some good points regarding statistics, etc -- my thought is that you have to judge a player based on the time spent in his era. You can't translate statistics across generations. Based on what is valued now, guys like Dave Kingman and Greg Luzinski would be future hall of famers. Pitchers today have inflated K totals because everyone is swinging for the fences. Ted Simmons got what 3.7% of the vote his first year on the ballot and now he is in the HOF because 13 guys, 30 years later thought he deserved to be in???

    I understand, the HOF is so watered down at this point, it just doesn't matter, but c'mon lets try and tighten it up going forward. Or better yet (stealing a Bill Simmons theory on hoops HOF), expand the HOF upward and have levels of HOF status - IE top floor Cy Young, bottom floor Ted Simmons. And let the BBWA inductees have their own wing, so guys like Harold Baines aren't in the same area as guys like Ted Williams.
    Building Topps sets from 1969 to the present. Always looking for Puckett cards.

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  4. #19
    How is Ted Simmons bottom Floor? I posted some of his stats which are better than Bench. I just don't see how people say he is not HOF worthy.
    Collecting Terry Bradshaw and players from the 70's Steelers Super Bowl teams, Larry Bird, and John Havlicek

  5. #20
    Tim Lincecum won 2 Cy Young when playing with the Giants currently not playing...but not HOF material....
    In Memory of Our friend and Bench moderator Randy Martin Aka fatboycards 1963 to 2011.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by neemann View Post
    How is Ted Simmons bottom Floor? I posted some of his stats which are better than Bench. I just don't see how people say he is not HOF worthy.
    As stated, stats can say anything you want them to. Bench had 389 HR's, Simmons had 248. Bench won World Series, Simmons didn't. Bench stayed with one team his entire career, Simmons played for multiple teams and had dustups with teammates and managers.

    If you break down Simmons for his 21 year career, he averaged 117 hits and 66 RBI's a year. Bench only played 17 years and had a dozen less RBIS and only 400 hits less, based on stats/averages, he would have surpassed Simmons if he stayed in the league longer.

    Accumulating isn't a HOF statistic. I am not trying to pick on Simmons, just pointing out why it could be seen that people feel he isn't a HOF caliber player. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sure there are players in the HOF that I like being there, that others would disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K. View Post
    Tim Lincecum won 2 Cy Young when playing with the Giants currently not playing...but not HOF material....
    This. Exactly. Just because you reach certain levels or achieve certain awards doesn't make you a HOF caliber player. Big Time Timmy Jim was good for a 3 or 4 year stretch, and that was it. Stats were amazing for those couple of years, but everything else he did was non-descript.
    Building Topps sets from 1969 to the present. Always looking for Puckett cards.

    Bench User Page has my most wanted and trade lists for 2011/12 Topps

    wantlists updated, new player tradelists added.
    http://www.katester44.webs.com/

    Kirby Puckett havelist:
    https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...sH&hl=en#gid=0

  7. #22
    Congrats to Simmons and Mavin Miller!
    In Memory of Our friend and Bench moderator Randy Martin Aka fatboycards 1963 to 2011.

  8. #23
    Johnny Bench 10 Gold Gloves!! Ted Simmons 0!!!

    You can't just compare players by their hitting stats!!!
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  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dan5 View Post
    Johnny Bench 10 Gold Gloves!! Ted Simmons 0!!!

    You can't just compare players by their hitting stats!!!
    Am I wrong to believe that the Gold Glove is awarded by vote and not just stats?

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by budd2222 View Post
    Am I wrong to believe that the Gold Glove is awarded by vote and not just stats?
    It still doesn't change the fact that Bench was a better defensive catcher than Simmons.
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    Football Shaquem Griffin & Alabama Crimson Tide players
    Boxing/MMA- Micky Ward, Gina Carano

  11. #26
    Bench was a much better player than Simmons--he had more power and was far beyond him as a defender. Bench has a legitimate argument to being the best catcher in history. But Simmons didn't need to be "as good as Bench" to make the HOF. Simmons is probably somewhere around 10-12th best, which is an HOF in my book.

  12. #27
    We went to Cooperstown this summer, and my two best friends who i went with and i had this conversation several times.....greats of the era vs. greats of all time. Some HOFers now are certainly greats of the era, but will probably not be remembered among Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Williams, Musial, DiMaggio, etc.

    That having been said, few people will ever stand up against that kind of competition, so a player must be evaluated by their impact in their era, and how they played the game. Ted Simmons was a great player on mediocre Cardinals teams. He had a big impact on those teams.

    Players can be and are evaluated by many criteria. Griffey won exactly zero World Series, but is a first ballot hall of Famer who has the second highest percentage of votes in history behind Mariano Rivera, who won only 82 games and had 1173 strikeouts. Rivera also saved 652 games and won 5 World Series!!

    Players are very individual, as are their contributions to their teams during their individual eras. No one size fits all criteria would ever be possible, so comparison between HOF players is also very difficult.

    God bless,

    Kevin
    "For nothing will be impossible for God" ~ Luke 1:37

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