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[bongo870]

The greatest player to ever play baseball was George Herman "Babe" Ruth You become the greatest at your sport when you go above it.

Ruth was good at baseball. But there was one thing he did better than baseball.... hot dog eating... LOL

 

[mm1sub]

The greatest player to ever play baseball was George Herman "Babe" Ruth You become the greatest at your sport when you go above it.

In the movie "Cobb" Tommy Lee Jones said that Ruth ran well for a fat man. I thought that was a pretty good statement. Ruth did transcend the sport. He is one of the only people in sports do ever do that. But I honestle think that Cobb was a better player than Ruth.

 

[bongo870]

In the movie "Cobb" Tommy Lee Jones said that Ruth ran well for a fat man. I thought that was a pretty good statement. Ruth did transcend the sport. He is one of the only people in sports do ever do that. But I honestle think that Cobb was a better player than Ruth.

See thats why I say no one can say one person is the best at baseball. If they were they would lead in all stats and that will never happen. Cobb had a better batting average than Ruth but Ruth had more home runs. And so forth. I like to say Cobb and Ruth were one of the best players to play the game.

 

[Dilferules]

An argument could be made for Rose to replace Tris Speaker or Ty Cobb on this list.

Please spell out that argument then. As others have pointed out, Ty Cobb was absolutely dominant. The single thing Rose has on him is the lifetime hit total, which he got by playing about 500 more games. His lifetime OPS+, which measures him against his peers and takes park effects into consideration, is 168 (where 100 is average). Pete Rose's is 118. Cobb has 600+ more RBI, 700 more stolen bases, led the league in hitting 11 times vs. Rose's 3, and scored 80 more runs despite playing in far fewer games. Rose has more career doubles and homers (hitting in a higher run evironment) but Cobb's career slugging percentage is a hundred points higher. Wins above replacement, which takes the complete player into account, values Cobb's career almost double that of Rose's. And finally, Cobb has the career batting average record, sixty-three points higher than Rose.

Also go take a look at Tris Speaker's stats. Career 157 OPS+, career wins above replacement 2/3 above Rose, batting average 40 points higher, slugging percentage 90 points higher (playing mostly in the dead ball era), 200+ more RBI and steals despite playing nearly 800 fewer games, career leader in doubles. The only reason he isn't mentioned as much as the others in my list of ten players is because there was another guy in the AL named Cobb that overshadowed him.

Richard

 

[bongo870]

Please spell out that argument then. As others have pointed out, Ty Cobb was absolutely dominant. The single thing Rose has on him is the lifetime hit total, which he got by playing about 500 more games. His lifetime OPS+, which measures him against his peers and takes park effects into consideration, is 168 (where 100 is average). Pete Rose's is 118. Cobb has 600+ more RBI, 700 more stolen bases, led the league in hitting 11 times vs. Rose's 3, and scored 80 more runs despite playing in far fewer games. Rose has more career doubles and homers (hitting in a higher run evironment) but Cobb's career slugging percentage is a hundred points higher. Wins above replacement, which takes the complete player into account, values Cobb's career almost double that of Rose's. And finally, Cobb has the career batting average record, sixty-three points higher than Rose.

Also go take a look at Tris Speaker's stats. Career 157 OPS+, career wins above replacement 2/3 above Rose, batting average 40 points higher, slugging percentage 90 points higher (playing mostly in the dead ball era), 200+ more RBI and steals despite playing nearly 800 fewer games, career leader in doubles. The only reason he isn't mentioned as much as the others in my list of ten players is because there was another guy in the AL named Cobb that overshadowed him.

Richard

i would of loved to lived back then and see these guys play. Back when it seems like baseball was more pure than now a days.

 

[Beachbum]

More food for thought on this and I am not making a point one way or the other but what about the overall quality of the players in Cobb's time vs. Rose's time??

Cobb was exceptional, no doubt, but was the average MLB player of the early 20th century less or greater than the average MLB player of the 60s/70s/80s?? I am not making any points about the individuals but trying to put some perspective on the climate and quality of the MLB during those eras??

It's quite possible that what Cobb did was even harder in his era that what Rose did, but could we consider the contrary? Or are we too biased against Rose??

 

[bongo870]

More food for thought on this and I am not making a point one way or the other but what about the overall quality of the players in Cobb's time vs. Rose's time??

Cobb was exceptional, no doubt, but was the average MLB player of the early 20th century less or greater than the average MLB player of the 60s/70s/80s?? I am not making any points about the individuals but trying to put some perspective on the climate and quality of the MLB during those eras??

It's quite possible that what Cobb did was even harder in his era that what Rose did, but could we consider the contrary? Or are we too biased against Rose??

Actually in my opinion they had it harder back then. Bats were not engendered like now a days. Just look at how small the gloves were back then. Fields were in no way the same condition. And the list goes on. So back then players had it harder.

And no one is "biased" against Rose. The fact remains he broke the biggest rule in baseball and now he made his bed and has to sleep in it. No one is saying Rose stank or was bad at playing. We ALL recognize he was a good player. You claim he was so much better than the rest. Others have proven by stats that he wasn't but you keep this claim without backing it up. please post why you feel he is the best ever....

 

[valediction]

Actually in my opinion they had it harder back then. Bats were not engendered like now a days. Just look at how small the gloves were back then. Fields were in no way the same condition. And the list goes on. So back then players had it harder.

And no one is "biased" against Rose. The fact remains he broke the biggest rule in baseball and now he made his bed and has to sleep in it. No one is saying Rose stank or was bad at playing. We ALL recognize he was a good player. You claim he was so much better than the rest. Others have proven by stats that he wasn't but you keep this claim without backing it up. please post why you feel he is the best ever....

There are things in any era which make it easier or add difficulty. Back then you played against the best white America had to offer (with a few exceptions), smaller gloves and worse condition fields would make it MORE likely to get a bad hop, or a ball just out of reach of a fielder back then, adding to the hits, no night games, so no day games AFTER night games, a west coast swing was heading to St Louis and Chicago, no artificial turf, no press reporting every flaw you had 24/7. On the other side, they traveled by train vs airplane all over the country, they have domes to get a dome rule double or lose a ball in the roof, no spitballers to face (in theory), more teams to dilute the talent, but a much bigger talent pool from which to work, advances in training, more scouting info available, etc.

(and BTW, I think it was jrchoholic that claimed Rose could replace Cobb or Speaker, not Beachbum) I enjoyed watching Rose myself, but I would definitely agree that I don't see him replacing either of them. Rose's last seven years or so were pretty much just hanging on to pass the record (as shown by a -2.5 WAR compared to the 29.3 WAR Cobb put up his last seven seasons)

 

[Beachbum]

Actually in my opinion they had it harder back then. Bats were not engendered like now a days. Just look at how small the gloves were back then. Fields were in no way the same condition. And the list goes on. So back then players had it harder.

And no one is "biased" against Rose. The fact remains he broke the biggest rule in baseball and now he made his bed and has to sleep in it. No one is saying Rose stank or was bad at playing. We ALL recognize he was a good player. You claim he was so much better than the rest. Others have proven by stats that he wasn't but you keep this claim without backing it up. please post why you feel he is the best ever....

I've actually tried very hard to be objective in this thread and I've never claimed a player was better or worse than Rose, so please don't go there. Thank you Valediction!

 

[bongo870]

I've actually tried very hard to be objective in this thread and I've never claimed a player was better or worse than Rose, so please don't go there. Thank you Valediction!

I would like to apologize as I got you mixed up with the OP and I am sorry. if I offended you in any way I am very sorry. I hope we are cool.

 

[bongo870]

There are things in any era which make it easier or add difficulty. Back then you played against the best white America had to offer (with a few exceptions), smaller gloves and worse condition fields would make it MORE likely to get a bad hop, or a ball just out of reach of a fielder back then, adding to the hits, no night games, so no day games AFTER night games, a west coast swing was heading to St Louis and Chicago, no artificial turf, no press reporting every flaw you had 24/7. On the other side, they traveled by train vs airplane all over the country, they have domes to get a dome rule double or lose a ball in the roof, no spitballers to face (in theory), more teams to dilute the talent, but a much bigger talent pool from which to work, advances in training, more scouting info available, etc.

(and BTW, I think it was jrchoholic that claimed Rose could replace Cobb or Speaker, not Beachbum) I enjoyed watching Rose myself, but I would definitely agree that I don't see him replacing either of them. Rose's last seven years or so were pretty much just hanging on to pass the record (as shown by a -2.5 WAR compared to the 29.3 WAR Cobb put up his last seven seasons)

Alot fo people would also say this about Cal Ripken too...

 

[valediction]

[/COLOR]
Alot fo people would also say this about Cal Ripken too...

True, but that's another mixed bag. Society has gotten so crazy about records over the years that the pressure to keep going gets blown ever more out of proportion, it must seem like there is no other option.

After about 1990, and especially 1991, it was 'Ripken had such a great year it's easy to see him keep playing until he catches Gehrig' Whose record did Gehrig break? Did the papers start making it a focus every time he took the field when he was still four or five seasons from breaking the record? Same with Cobb...Every article I read about Rose, the back of most baseball cards from the time I started following baseball in 1980 were about him breaking Musial, then Cobb's record. They were talking about Cobb's record in 1981 and he didn't break it until what, 1985? Every interview, every appearance it seemed like was about Cobb. Did Cobb go through that when he was 4 years away from passing Anson? Might be interesting to read some national newspapers from back then to see if they were tracking Cobb's progress in 1921 or how many articles we could find the season he broke the record.

 

[bongo870]

True, but that's another mixed bag. Society has gotten so crazy about records over the years that the pressure to keep going gets blown ever more out of proportion, it must seem like there is no other option.

After about 1990, and especially 1991, it was 'Ripken had such a great year it's easy to see him keep playing until he catches Gehrig' Whose record did Gehrig break? Did the papers start making it a focus every time he took the field when he was still four or five seasons from breaking the record? Same with Cobb...Every article I read about Rose, the back of most baseball cards from the time I started following baseball in 1980 were about him breaking Musial, then Cobb's record. They were talking about Cobb's record in 1981 and he didn't break it until what, 1985? Every interview, every appearance it seemed like was about Cobb. Did Cobb go through that when he was 4 years away from passing Anson? Might be interesting to read some national newspapers from back then to see if they were tracking Cobb's progress in 1921 or how many articles we could find the season he broke the record.

I would like to think they were like that back then. just nowadays we have more (tv computers and so forth) back then they just had newspapers and radios. But i bet they were all over him a few years back from the record. baseball was a way of life even back then....

 

[Beachbum]

I would like to apologize as I got you mixed up with the OP and I am sorry. if I offended you in any way I am very sorry. I hope we are cool.

Thank you for the apology, I've got thicker skin than that but I was just trying to set the record straight. I am a Rose fan but I don't think he was the greatest player ever, many of the reasons were already spelled out here. I would like to think he could make the top 10 in reality but I am not a statistician so I wouldn't even be able to make that argument. Doesn't really matter, why do we like who we like, its usually not because of the numbers necessarily.

 

[BoomerSooner]

Waiting for the "Boycott Ty Cobb" thread.

 

[bongo870]

Thank you for the apology, I've got thicker skin than that but I was just trying to set the record straight. I am a Rose fan but I don't think he was the greatest player ever, many of the reasons were already spelled out here. I would like to think he could make the top 10 in reality but I am not a statistician so I wouldn't even be able to make that argument. Doesn't really matter, why do we like who we like, its usually not because of the numbers necessarily.

Just like my Griffey collection. i collect him beacuse he is a great guy on and off the field.

 

[jrchoholic83]

Waiting for the "Boycott Ty Cobb" thread.

Sorry guys I couldn't chime in I had business on the Oregon coast to attend to.

That happened long ago for me. A blatant racist like Cobb = a subhuman piece of trash.

Waiting for the "BoomerSooner let's it go" thread.

And like this thread or not, this is the most "alive" I have seen the Bench in quite some time.

 

[waterboy12386]

I think this discussion has run its course and it's time to close it before it gets carried away.