TTMS….. to pay or not to pay

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t.rooster

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About 3 years ago I started a project to have everyone of my vintage cards, starting in the '50s and rolling into the '70s (the majority of them), signed by those players willing. I set about with specific parameters that I would not pay for a signature that was over $3, but sometimes giving in to $4.
While I know it's the players prerogative to sign or not sign, charge money or do it out of the goodness of their hearts, there is an increasing number of players unwilling to do TTMs for free as their careers become later into the '70s and towards the '80s.
My peeve is that there are people like Chris Potter that have found a niche in organizing signings for these players for money. Players that ordinarily did not charge are no longer willing to sign for free or for a nominal fee. I look at people like Chris Potter as a pariah and wish they would go away and let us real enthusiasts do our thing…..
 
My peeve is that there are people like Chris Potter…..
Ha ha ha ha ha. Potter.

While everyone has a capitalistic right to (legally) make money any way they see fit, Chris has definitely irritated quite a few collectors in the autograph community. For every long-lost baseball player he uncovers, I bet there are a half dozen formerly-free TTMers who are now on the dark side.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall and listen to his sales pitch to these former MLBers. I wonder if he shows them a Power Point presentation of what the player's autograph is selling for on eBay and other sites? And then I wonder if he mentions that the $ they make is income and it has to be reported to the IRS as such (with a Power Point presentation of Jerry Koosman)?

I can see a few unique exceptions where Potter is good for the community (For one ... if a collector is doing a multi-signed item and wants an autograph in a specific spot in a specific color.) but overall it does suck that free TTMers are going the way of the dinosaurs.
 
I am definitely not here to defend Potter, but I know some of my signings could fall in that same bracket. Most of the time I attempt to get tough signers but occasionally I will do one with a guy like Larry McWilliams or Donald Harris who sign pretty well. I do these with the hopes of getting connections with other guys who don't sign. For every Donald Harris you find the non-signers like Kevin Belcher through contacts. I never advise a player on what they should do regarding their mail unless they ask for my opinion.

As I said, I do not know what Potter or other guys do, but that is my reasoning. If they stop signing after seeing they can make a few bucks then they do but no PowerPoint presentations here.

Many of these players begin charging too because they need the income. Most of them are not in the financial shape that we assume for various reasons. I would prefer the player be the one making the money off of it than me or some dealer every time.

Don't think we can pin the demise of the free signer completely on someone like Potter. Unfortunately I believe EBay began making the hobby harder long before Potter was doing signings.

Just my thoughts from someone who does these.
 
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Darrell, you raise an excellent point about players needing the money to pay for day-to-day living expenses. Even though Major Leaguers earn a pension after only 43 days of service time in the bigs, I would guess it isn't enough to rely on for your exclusive income source. Many don't have a college education; they sign a pro contract right out of high school.

You know, Darrell, if I had the opportunity to do a private signing with a solid free TTMer, I would likely do it.

Living in New Hampshire, there aren't many former MLBers living up here (they prefer the warmer climate like !Texas!). In fact, I can only think of one: Rico Petrocelli.

On a side note, this thread got me thinking about the finances of life-after-baseball for many players with limited Major League service. This is an interesting article from MLB.com on the subject: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110620&content_id=20772874&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
 
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Mort- Thanks for the article, I will check it out. (update: Great article, this confirms exactly what I have been seeing. Glad to see the Alumni Association is doing something about this.)

The more and more I sit with players the more and more I am able to see their side of things. I don't want to paint the picture that all of them are poor and destitute, but at the same time there are many who are struggling to pay rent, find jobs and most of all discover their identity outside of baseball. Many of them all they had ever known was baseball so outside of that they are not 100 percent sure who they want to be or what they want to do with their lives. The pension no doubt helps, but many of them pay the penalty of bad choices whether in be child support, bad business investments, lavish living, losing assets in divorce etc just like any other person. With lack of education and sometimes coming from poverty, they blindly trust someone to take care of their money for them and invest and at times trust the wrong people. It is a litany of things.

These rung of players are the ones who actually need the private signing money, not the superstars like Jeter, Rivera etc. That being said I once felt the same way Rooster, until I sat on this side of the table. Things look different when you see that not all of these guys are driving Bentleys.
 
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I am not making a stand that players shouldn't ask for a fee for their services, that is not what I am talking about at all. What I am saying is cut out the blood sucker middle men and create your own revolution…..
 
If you are referring to people like me, I can tell you that rarely do I take a cut on these signings and take autos for my collection as payment. I know most of us make little or nothing on these and just enjoy meeting the players and helping collectors. Again Potter may be a different animal, I can only speak for me. This is a hobby for me
 
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When I see a non-signer like Jimmie Hall turn up on Potter's site, I jump because I need him and with older players you don't know if they'll be available in the future. If you don't like the prices, opt out. No one is putting a gun to your head saying you have to pay for an autograph. Me, I'm thankful for the opportunity to land a tough signature. And, the prices for a notorious non-signer, like Don Young of the '69 Cubs, have come down over the years as he's more available now than he was for approximately 40 years.
 
If you are referring to people like me, I can tell you that rarely do I take a cut on these signings and take autos for my collection as payment. I know most of us make little or nothing on these and just enjoy meeting the players and helping collectors. Again Potter is a different animal, I can only speak for me. This is a hobby for me

Then I'm not talking about you, am I?
 
I agree with Tony totally.

Rooster I think you are painting some pretty wide strokes and making some assumptions about those who do signings that may not be true. Just thought it was slightly rude that you said this "I look at people like Chris Potter as a pariah and wish they would go away and let us real enthusiasts do our thing….." I just wanted to inform you that your blanket statements are not one size fits all. Most of us love autographs and baseball as much as you do. I do not even know Potter personally but to slander him publicly when he is not here to defend himself nor has he done anything to you personally and without knowing his reasoning for doing signings I believe is wrong and childish.

All that said, I am out on this conversation. I do not want to banter back and forth, just thought someone needed to clarify things from the player and promoter side of things.
 
I suppose a player can charge what the market will bear for his signature and some of the harder to find guys like Hall, Mike Marshall, Jim Ray Hart, Willie Tasby, Bobby Darwin, Rich Coggins and a few others who have shown up on Potter's list are probably more of a welcome site to collectors who badly want to add them to their collections and have not had any luck on their own.

What bothers me, and again it's a free market here, so I can opt out just as easy as the next guy, is that self-created scarcity that thrusts the cost of these players well beyond what should reasonably be the prices, especially considering their careers and contributions to the game. I collect Mariner and Dodger autographs and am trying to get ALL signatures from former Dodgers and more specific to the Mariners, only cards issued between 1977-1987 signed. I can rattle off a number of toughies, most of which had a cup of coffee at best. For example, I have seen exactly (1) Bob Giallombardo autograph on ebay since I started looking. I understand he charges $25 (according to a website I came across during a search) and although I would have scoffed at that price as recent as a year ago, I now realize that if I want to add him, I probably have to pay it. Maybe the price has lead to almost nonexistent supply, or maybe he just doesn't sign much to begin with. I would like to get his 59 Topps card and maybe his Target card if I was feeling especially rich that day. I don't want to pay $25. I really don't think his career warrants a $25 fee, but I would probably bid $40 if one popped up on ebay!

I'd like to see the common, everyday guys get some money for their fame, especially those playing before the mega contracts or those who didn't play long enough to get rich (However, I don't feel sorry for those that put all their eggs into their sporting ability basket and didn't plan ahead with school, job training, etc or were foolish with the money they did have, snorted it up their noses, etc). Free autographs are cool, but I am willing to pay a few bucks for even the most obscure players and I am glad to send that money straight into a former players pocket and not someone who happened to convince them to sign and now gets a cut. I would just prefer to keep them at a few bucks. If you think about it, $3-5 for a player to sign his name. That is pretty good money. Even the slowest of slow could manage 1 signature per minute and that is $180-300/Hr! The reasonable fee would hopefully draw more customers and/or repeat customer. Heck, for $3, I might try to get every card signed I could find of an obscure player, just because it was affordable and I try to do that anyway.

Now back to the topic of Chris Potter, since he has not presented a combination of right player and decent price, I have never considered buying from him yet. He has added a few real toughies, but their prices are still too high for my taste. He came as close as possible to wrangling me in as a customer with his most recent signing with Jimmie Hall. I just couldn't talk myself into the $35 fee though, as i already have the card signed i wanted. Still too high! Willie Tasby was also tempting at $20 and I would have jumped to get his 60T trophy card signed for my collection, but I already landed one. $20 is too much for me to add his 61T, but I like a bargain too.

He got Mike Marshall to sign more items, which is awesome, but at $185 a signature, SCREW THAT! Better than the $200-250 we saw before, but still ridiculous! If he could locate and land the Noe Numoz, Bob Giallombardo, Sergio Robles, Bob O'Brien, Ricky Wright, Reggie Walton or Kevin Pasley kind of guys and keep the costs down, then he would be my hero.
 
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I dont generally pay for TTMs, though I think when people sign for free, its fun for collectors, but for all the above reasons (ebay, excessive fees, forgeries, etc.) some have stopped. Also, it seems some get overwhelmed by signing for free and stop signing, or at least change their habits.

I have paid for a few, but they were old timers (58 Cardinals multi-signed team card I TTMed about a year ago). I dont mind helping a retired player.

That said, Darrell, its fun to follow the trail of your signings, and see the photos, neat addition to the hobby, and helpful to collectors for sure. Didnt know you were a pastor, thanks for your ministry!

God Bless!

Kevin Mc
 
I looked him up and emailed the church, asking if he would consider signing for a donation to the church and I didn't even get a reply. I know from the supply that just sending something there is unlikely to result in a signature, but I never tried it either way.

I have a couple of his 57T cards signed, but those are Cubbies cards and I want the Dodger card!!

Maybe I can get Solly since I am a pastor too
 
The retired players should organize themselves, eliminate the middleman, and get 100% of any fee charged. When I see a $20 fee I wonder how much is going to the player and how much to the organizer. If the fee is too high don't buy, if no one buys then the fee will go down. If not enough collectors use Mr. Potter's service and it is not profitable for him then he will stop doing it, if he is in the business to make money.
 
Most of the players have no desire to organize these themselves and have no idea where to begin. If your reputation is good among players then they will actually approach you about doing the signings or refer their friends. They want the middle man, but a middle man who has their best interest in mind. Some of them have no link to collectors. Without the middle man some players would never sign because they do not like mail coming to their house but have no problem signing.

The fee system usually works one or two ways for the signings I do and I allow the player to decide how we set it. A set fee that goes to him for an hour of his time. Then I have to set the fee for the signing to o try to make my money back. For example Calvin Schiraldi has a high set fee so I have to charge higher fees to even have a chance of breaking even, but Choo Freeman is only $5 an item because his set fee was low. The second way is I give players all the money that comes in big or small and they sign 10-15 things free for me. Different guys like different arrangements but it is always on the table.

The players enjoy the signings. Chuck McElroy told me yesterday he thought he was enjoying it even more than me. They love seeing the unusual items that come in in these signings. I think if you sat in on one you would feel different.

Still not sure why people are so against those of us who do signings when we are trying to help collectors have access to players who they might not be able to get otherwise. I have tons of collectors too who contact me and ask me to try to get a certain player and in some cases I have been able to help. I love that.

I do not lump myself in a category with Potter but there are some good guys out there doing signings whose heart is to help the collector and put money in the players pocket. Some of the top of my head are Todd Schafer from Under the Radar Sports and Chris Rifon.
 
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I think what you are doing is cool, unfortunately none of the names have excited me yet. If you can eventually land Espy at a lower price point, i am definitely in.

I think I would probably set myself into the category of I'll do the work to arrange and receive the items, as long as it didn't cost me anything but time, and for that, I'd just want them to sign my things for free and give me an opportunity to spend the day with the player, ask questions, hear stories, etc.

A few years back, I offered to try to get things signed at a minor league game where players were scheduled to sign, Dan Wilson and Dave Stewart. The problem there was I didn't have any control over the signing and there was no guarantee they would sign what I had (turns out Stewart was unwilling to sign Phillies and Rangers cards) or that I would be able to get through the lines quick enough to get all items signed. I didn't want any money for it, just helping others out. It worked out OK, but after a few of these, it was apparent that you can only get a limited number of items signed in the 2 hour window they allot and working your way through the line can be 20-30 minutes per cycle. Obviously, I need to get my items signed first as well, especially given Stewart was a Dodger. With help from my family, I got more signatures, but when they were tired and bored, it was just me. I think a private signing would be awesome and would be more than happy to do one for nothing but some free signatures for myself.

I tried to get enough interest to coordinate a signing of former Mariners & White Sox Julio Cruz with the help of a local shop, who had him in for a free signing earlier that year. I never personally spoke with Cruz, as the shop was the contact, but the shop owner suggested offering around $200 and felt Cruz would be cool with that. I offered the sigs at $5 each to members of this board (I believe) to help pay for the fee we'd offer, but I barely got anyone interested and I wasn't about to invest $150+ in Julio Cruz signatures in hopes I'd be able to sell them later. I finally bagged the idea, but my plan was to get enough paying customers at $5 per item to enable me to give Cruz all the money (the shop didn't want/need a cut, nor did I) and then get my items signed for free.

Please keep doing what you do. Any former Dodgers you can line up will pique my interest as well...
 
I do believe that a small monetary donation ($5) to the players charitable organization is the right thing to do. After all the player doesn't have to sign a thing since there is no obligation to do so & it leaves you with a better feeling since giving.
 
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